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	<title>Comments for the Foresight Institute</title>
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	<link>http://www.foresight.org/nanodot</link>
	<description>examining transformative technology</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Fri, 20 Nov 2009 21:44:22 -0800</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>Comment on Reynolds advocates faster nano/AI R&amp;D for safety reasons by Erin</title>
		<link>http://www.foresight.org/nanodot/?p=3503#comment-865377</link>
		<dc:creator>Erin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 20 Nov 2009 21:44:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.foresight.org/nanodot/?p=3503#comment-865377</guid>
		<description>This is a very good point Mr Reynolds makes. I have thought long and hard on MNT based weapons and manufacturing systems and how they appear to be developing and how they can develop. The idea that we will have a &quot;general universal replicator&quot; as soon as we can do repeatable mechanosynthesis does not seem likely, instead, I estimate steps and levels of greater capability, starting with basic assembly systems. The potential danger of this is thus: We have a world of people with mentalities and hatreds developed over thousands of years, in the Pre Assembler Days. Once even basic somewhat cheap assembler systems can be made, say ones limited to biochemistries, or graphene, or silicates, even before the advanced active shields can be made, or before general replicators can be made, you WILL most assuredly have people who want to abuse them earlier ones.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is a very good point Mr Reynolds makes. I have thought long and hard on MNT based weapons and manufacturing systems and how they appear to be developing and how they can develop. The idea that we will have a &#8220;general universal replicator&#8221; as soon as we can do repeatable mechanosynthesis does not seem likely, instead, I estimate steps and levels of greater capability, starting with basic assembly systems. The potential danger of this is thus: We have a world of people with mentalities and hatreds developed over thousands of years, in the Pre Assembler Days. Once even basic somewhat cheap assembler systems can be made, say ones limited to biochemistries, or graphene, or silicates, even before the advanced active shields can be made, or before general replicators can be made, you WILL most assuredly have people who want to abuse them earlier ones.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Robots by Dave Wyland</title>
		<link>http://www.foresight.org/nanodot/?p=3477#comment-865370</link>
		<dc:creator>Dave Wyland</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Nov 2009 17:15:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.foresight.org/nanodot/?p=3477#comment-865370</guid>
		<description>Re: Tim Tyler
This says that the key to robotics is &quot;intelligence&quot; (or its equivalent) and that it can be developed independent of embodiment. A reasonable hypothesis to test. We have been testing it for 50+ years with little to show for it in any practical sense. Factory robots do not require it, and (almost) all field robots (iRobot in Iraq, UAVs, Mars Rovers, etc.) are tele-operated.

The mechanics of robots has proceeded at a good pace. Robots in factories do their jobs quite well. We have running and grasping robots, ect., but they only work well when a human is supporting them with some level of tele-operation.  This supports the point that the mechanics are good (or at least good enough), but their control is missing - and still has to be supplied by a human for practical applications. 

I suggest another direction. Factory robots we have. Field robots we need. Harvest Automation (http://www.harvestautomation.com/) has made a start with field robots that autonomously move plants around in a nursery. A simple - but not necessarily easy - task. There is a huge range of applications for robots that can move things around without knowing before hand exactly where they are, as is required in factory robots.  This is tough engineering, as opposed to R&amp;D. But it is a path that can be developed to yield increasingly useful stuff.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Re: Tim Tyler<br />
This says that the key to robotics is &#8220;intelligence&#8221; (or its equivalent) and that it can be developed independent of embodiment. A reasonable hypothesis to test. We have been testing it for 50+ years with little to show for it in any practical sense. Factory robots do not require it, and (almost) all field robots (iRobot in Iraq, UAVs, Mars Rovers, etc.) are tele-operated.</p>
<p>The mechanics of robots has proceeded at a good pace. Robots in factories do their jobs quite well. We have running and grasping robots, ect., but they only work well when a human is supporting them with some level of tele-operation.  This supports the point that the mechanics are good (or at least good enough), but their control is missing &#8211; and still has to be supplied by a human for practical applications. </p>
<p>I suggest another direction. Factory robots we have. Field robots we need. Harvest Automation (<a href="http://www.harvestautomation.com/" rel="nofollow">http://www.harvestautomation.com/</a>) has made a start with field robots that autonomously move plants around in a nursery. A simple &#8211; but not necessarily easy &#8211; task. There is a huge range of applications for robots that can move things around without knowing before hand exactly where they are, as is required in factory robots.  This is tough engineering, as opposed to R&amp;D. But it is a path that can be developed to yield increasingly useful stuff.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Technology Review:  Self-Cleaning, Super-Absorbant Solar Cells by Instapundit &#187; Blog Archive &#187; FASTER, PLEASE: Self-Cleaning, Super-Absorbant Solar Cells&#8230;.</title>
		<link>http://www.foresight.org/nanodot/?p=3495#comment-865368</link>
		<dc:creator>Instapundit &#187; Blog Archive &#187; FASTER, PLEASE: Self-Cleaning, Super-Absorbant Solar Cells&#8230;.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Nov 2009 01:58:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.foresight.org/nanodot/?p=3495#comment-865368</guid>
		<description>[...] FASTER, PLEASE: Self-Cleaning, Super-Absorbant Solar Cells. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] FASTER, PLEASE: Self-Cleaning, Super-Absorbant Solar Cells. [...]</p>
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		<title>Comment on Nanotechnology researchers find reliable, mess-free way to grow graphene by Chemical Synthesis</title>
		<link>http://www.foresight.org/nanodot/?p=3485#comment-865362</link>
		<dc:creator>Chemical Synthesis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 17 Nov 2009 12:24:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.foresight.org/nanodot/?p=3485#comment-865362</guid>
		<description>Great work..can we apply any thin-film processing technique for this?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Great work..can we apply any thin-film processing technique for this?</p>
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		<title>Comment on Gallery &#8211; A joyride through the nanoscale &#8211; Image 1 &#8211; New Scientist by Chris Peterson</title>
		<link>http://www.foresight.org/nanodot/?p=3497#comment-865359</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris Peterson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 16 Nov 2009 18:57:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.foresight.org/nanodot/?p=3497#comment-865359</guid>
		<description>Beautiful images.  The more technical among us will wish for the scales to be shown.  But maybe scale bars put off non-technical readers.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Beautiful images.  The more technical among us will wish for the scales to be shown.  But maybe scale bars put off non-technical readers.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Technology Review:  Self-Cleaning, Super-Absorbant Solar Cells by dieto33</title>
		<link>http://www.foresight.org/nanodot/?p=3495#comment-865358</link>
		<dc:creator>dieto33</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 16 Nov 2009 07:08:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.foresight.org/nanodot/?p=3495#comment-865358</guid>
		<description>When this techno become cheap...?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>When this techno become cheap&#8230;?</p>
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		<title>Comment on More on the AI takeover by Valkyrie Ice</title>
		<link>http://www.foresight.org/nanodot/?p=3467#comment-865351</link>
		<dc:creator>Valkyrie Ice</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 15 Nov 2009 05:46:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.foresight.org/nanodot/?p=3467#comment-865351</guid>
		<description>Wow, the number of assumptions made AIs makes me laugh at times.

1. AI must automatically be &quot;superior&quot; to Human.

Why? Why do we assume that AI will outstrip humanity by a wide margin? A human with a BCI or a complete upload could access the same hardware an AI could. With our increasing knowledge of the brain, it&#039;s highly probable we will redesign it to use nanocomputers to run at electronic speeds. Why should an AI surpass a nanoenhanced human?

2. AI &quot;must&quot; be sentient and self aware.

Why? Why does an autopilot need to be aware of anything other than the data needed to do it&#039;s job? Or a construction bot? or a maid?  Even if it requires understanding and emotional responses at a human level, why must it posses desires? Why must it possess curiosity, why must it posses anything outside of the narrowly defined field of expertise? Does a maidbot need to know about to build a copy of herself? Or how to use a weapon? A General purpose AI may need to know an enormous amount of data to do it&#039;s job, but it still does not need to know &quot;everything&quot; or share common human faults.

3. AI &quot;evolution&quot; will ensure revolt.

Why? Humans evolved because of pressure from our environment. Most of our problems in the world stem from the fact that evolution equipped us to survive in a jungle. Alpha dominance behavior lies behind nearly every war, injustice, and inequality in our world today. Even the drive to expand wants is due to the constant striving of the Alpha Dominance routine to take more and more to constantly prove it&#039;s superiority over all competitors. Why would an AI feel these forces? It has no need to evolve aggressive behaviors, UNLESS WE PROGRAM IT TO. The ONLY way humanity could be a minor threat to a &quot;superhuman AI&quot; would be to force humanity as a whole into survival mode. If Humanity is sharing the same technological advances, advancing itself as quickly as the AI could, what, really, would make either side view the other as a threat?  (other than the primitive natures we humans drag with us. AI is far more likely to be SEEN as a threat than actually BE one.

4. AI must be &quot;inhuman&quot;

This one I never got, really.  By DEFINITION, AI is intended to make a &quot;sentient&quot; computer program which is capable of being considered &quot;human&quot; In other words, it will share Human emotion, thought patterns, drives, goals, ambitions, etc. It will by definition, be &quot;HUMAN&quot;

In otherwords, it will be like taking a human being and uploading them. In all ways it will be indistinguishable if it is a AI or a Uploaded Human in order to be considered AI as currently accepted.

What people fear isn&#039;t AI at all. An AI would just be another human, just made artificially. What people fear is a NON Human AI. An AI which would completely fail a Turing Test. Skynet isn&#039;t an AI, it&#039;s a singleminded killing machine. The Matrix isn&#039;t AI either, it&#039;s hostile Deus Ex Machina.

Neither of these machines would pass the definition of AI as held in the popular mindset. They aren&#039;t HUMAN, but monsters of the ID brought to life.

People fear the future because they don&#039;t understand the future. Their primitive cortex is scared that they will lose what they have instead of gaining far more.  A robot society cannot be a dystopia like people fear, because the actual effects of a robot society are too corrosive to artificially maintained scarcity. A dystopian phase may happen, but it can only be maintained for so long.

People need to stop looking at technological advancement as separate and discreet things, and realize everything has to be taken as a whole. It&#039;s not just AI, but AI and Biotech, and Nanotech, and Virtual Reality, and Quantum computing, and everything else. 

And first and foremost, we must come to grips with our primitive biological drives, and cope with them honestly.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wow, the number of assumptions made AIs makes me laugh at times.</p>
<p>1. AI must automatically be &#8220;superior&#8221; to Human.</p>
<p>Why? Why do we assume that AI will outstrip humanity by a wide margin? A human with a BCI or a complete upload could access the same hardware an AI could. With our increasing knowledge of the brain, it&#8217;s highly probable we will redesign it to use nanocomputers to run at electronic speeds. Why should an AI surpass a nanoenhanced human?</p>
<p>2. AI &#8220;must&#8221; be sentient and self aware.</p>
<p>Why? Why does an autopilot need to be aware of anything other than the data needed to do it&#8217;s job? Or a construction bot? or a maid?  Even if it requires understanding and emotional responses at a human level, why must it posses desires? Why must it possess curiosity, why must it posses anything outside of the narrowly defined field of expertise? Does a maidbot need to know about to build a copy of herself? Or how to use a weapon? A General purpose AI may need to know an enormous amount of data to do it&#8217;s job, but it still does not need to know &#8220;everything&#8221; or share common human faults.</p>
<p>3. AI &#8220;evolution&#8221; will ensure revolt.</p>
<p>Why? Humans evolved because of pressure from our environment. Most of our problems in the world stem from the fact that evolution equipped us to survive in a jungle. Alpha dominance behavior lies behind nearly every war, injustice, and inequality in our world today. Even the drive to expand wants is due to the constant striving of the Alpha Dominance routine to take more and more to constantly prove it&#8217;s superiority over all competitors. Why would an AI feel these forces? It has no need to evolve aggressive behaviors, UNLESS WE PROGRAM IT TO. The ONLY way humanity could be a minor threat to a &#8220;superhuman AI&#8221; would be to force humanity as a whole into survival mode. If Humanity is sharing the same technological advances, advancing itself as quickly as the AI could, what, really, would make either side view the other as a threat?  (other than the primitive natures we humans drag with us. AI is far more likely to be SEEN as a threat than actually BE one.</p>
<p>4. AI must be &#8220;inhuman&#8221;</p>
<p>This one I never got, really.  By DEFINITION, AI is intended to make a &#8220;sentient&#8221; computer program which is capable of being considered &#8220;human&#8221; In other words, it will share Human emotion, thought patterns, drives, goals, ambitions, etc. It will by definition, be &#8220;HUMAN&#8221;</p>
<p>In otherwords, it will be like taking a human being and uploading them. In all ways it will be indistinguishable if it is a AI or a Uploaded Human in order to be considered AI as currently accepted.</p>
<p>What people fear isn&#8217;t AI at all. An AI would just be another human, just made artificially. What people fear is a NON Human AI. An AI which would completely fail a Turing Test. Skynet isn&#8217;t an AI, it&#8217;s a singleminded killing machine. The Matrix isn&#8217;t AI either, it&#8217;s hostile Deus Ex Machina.</p>
<p>Neither of these machines would pass the definition of AI as held in the popular mindset. They aren&#8217;t HUMAN, but monsters of the ID brought to life.</p>
<p>People fear the future because they don&#8217;t understand the future. Their primitive cortex is scared that they will lose what they have instead of gaining far more.  A robot society cannot be a dystopia like people fear, because the actual effects of a robot society are too corrosive to artificially maintained scarcity. A dystopian phase may happen, but it can only be maintained for so long.</p>
<p>People need to stop looking at technological advancement as separate and discreet things, and realize everything has to be taken as a whole. It&#8217;s not just AI, but AI and Biotech, and Nanotech, and Virtual Reality, and Quantum computing, and everything else. </p>
<p>And first and foremost, we must come to grips with our primitive biological drives, and cope with them honestly.</p>
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		<title>Comment on The bad robot takeover by Ride Fast</title>
		<link>http://www.foresight.org/nanodot/?p=3479#comment-865344</link>
		<dc:creator>Ride Fast</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 14 Nov 2009 17:18:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.foresight.org/nanodot/?p=3479#comment-865344</guid>
		<description>Hit, or dial, zero. Talk to a human. Analog phones still exist and if they want to accept calls from an analog phone they use zero to switch to an analog robot.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hit, or dial, zero. Talk to a human. Analog phones still exist and if they want to accept calls from an analog phone they use zero to switch to an analog robot.</p>
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		<title>Comment on The bad robot takeover by Jody</title>
		<link>http://www.foresight.org/nanodot/?p=3479#comment-865342</link>
		<dc:creator>Jody</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 14 Nov 2009 00:52:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.foresight.org/nanodot/?p=3479#comment-865342</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;The state of the art in phone-answering systems isn’t quite as bad as the humorous editorial above makes out&lt;/i&gt;

My experience with Verizon (business DSL to be specific) this week would contradict this claim. In fact, it was almost the editorial&#039;s exchange verbatim, except there was more swearing.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>The state of the art in phone-answering systems isn’t quite as bad as the humorous editorial above makes out</i></p>
<p>My experience with Verizon (business DSL to be specific) this week would contradict this claim. In fact, it was almost the editorial&#8217;s exchange verbatim, except there was more swearing.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Is Robo Habilis a gateway to Intelligence? by Bob Mottram</title>
		<link>http://www.foresight.org/nanodot/?p=3471#comment-865341</link>
		<dc:creator>Bob Mottram</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 13 Nov 2009 18:56:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.foresight.org/nanodot/?p=3471#comment-865341</guid>
		<description>Doubtless it will be possible to build an AGI without reference to the wider environment, but if your desire is to create a &quot;habilis&quot; then some sort of body will be required - even if it&#039;s only a simulated one.  So much of our intellectual performance is bound up with being embodied that attempts to neatly delineate mind and body into separate magisteria are doomed from the outset.  Even in the realm of pure linguistics it is hard to avoid concepts which originate from embodiment, and the purely linguistic AI will struggle to understand many concepts with which humans are trivially acquainted.

The main difficulty facing habilis creators suffering from robophobia is that current simulation environments are insufficiently rich to be capable of producing experiences comparable to human sensory input.  Some satisfaction can be obtained by using data sets such as those on Rawseeds, but real AGI will require learning through interaction which these static data sets are unable to deliver.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Doubtless it will be possible to build an AGI without reference to the wider environment, but if your desire is to create a &#8220;habilis&#8221; then some sort of body will be required &#8211; even if it&#8217;s only a simulated one.  So much of our intellectual performance is bound up with being embodied that attempts to neatly delineate mind and body into separate magisteria are doomed from the outset.  Even in the realm of pure linguistics it is hard to avoid concepts which originate from embodiment, and the purely linguistic AI will struggle to understand many concepts with which humans are trivially acquainted.</p>
<p>The main difficulty facing habilis creators suffering from robophobia is that current simulation environments are insufficiently rich to be capable of producing experiences comparable to human sensory input.  Some satisfaction can be obtained by using data sets such as those on Rawseeds, but real AGI will require learning through interaction which these static data sets are unable to deliver.</p>
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