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	<title>Comments on: Malaysia to split nanotech IP three ways</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.foresight.org/nanodot/?feed=rss2&#038;p=2186" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.foresight.org/nanodot/?p=2186</link>
	<description>examining transformative technology</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Wed, 03 Apr 2013 18:23:47 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: Malaysia to split nanotech IP three ways &#124; Anchorscience LLC</title>
		<link>http://www.foresight.org/nanodot/?p=2186#comment-745846</link>
		<dc:creator>Malaysia to split nanotech IP three ways &#124; Anchorscience LLC</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 29 Sep 2008 19:59:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.foresight.org/nanodot/?p=2186#comment-745846</guid>
		<description>[...] In the U.S., patent rights from federally-funded grants to university researchers generally go to the universities. Sometimes, the research professors benefit personally, depending on the school. This situation results from the Bahy-Dole Act of 1980. Most observers regard this act as an improvement over what came before, but it’s not clear that [...] more [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] In the U.S., patent rights from federally-funded grants to university researchers generally go to the universities. Sometimes, the research professors benefit personally, depending on the school. This situation results from the Bahy-Dole Act of 1980. Most observers regard this act as an improvement over what came before, but it’s not clear that [...] more [...]</p>
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		<title>By: maryam shaeri</title>
		<link>http://www.foresight.org/nanodot/?p=2186#comment-451084</link>
		<dc:creator>maryam shaeri</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 05 Jan 2008 06:43:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.foresight.org/nanodot/?p=2186#comment-451084</guid>
		<description>on behalf of a state based office in Iran  working in the field of science -technology development we would like to find ways of mutual cooperation and marketing in the field of nanotechnology.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>on behalf of a state based office in Iran  working in the field of science -technology development we would like to find ways of mutual cooperation and marketing in the field of nanotechnology.</p>
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		<title>By: Phillip Huggan</title>
		<link>http://www.foresight.org/nanodot/?p=2186#comment-8750</link>
		<dc:creator>Phillip Huggan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 10 Apr 2006 19:17:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.foresight.org/nanodot/?p=2186#comment-8750</guid>
		<description>The quicker the &quot;turnover&quot; in a given industry, the shorter should be the time-period for patent protection.  For nanotechnology (a field which changes weekly), the 20 year patent time-period should be cut in half.  On the other hand there are some nanotechnologies which won&#039;t even be feasible 10 years from now but someone may still want to patent them.  So if you drop nanotechnology patent monopoly time-periods, you also have to strengthen the administration of patent offices at the same time.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The quicker the &#8220;turnover&#8221; in a given industry, the shorter should be the time-period for patent protection.  For nanotechnology (a field which changes weekly), the 20 year patent time-period should be cut in half.  On the other hand there are some nanotechnologies which won&#8217;t even be feasible 10 years from now but someone may still want to patent them.  So if you drop nanotechnology patent monopoly time-periods, you also have to strengthen the administration of patent offices at the same time.</p>
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		<title>By: Christine Peterson</title>
		<link>http://www.foresight.org/nanodot/?p=2186#comment-8290</link>
		<dc:creator>Christine Peterson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 17 Mar 2006 22:16:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.foresight.org/nanodot/?p=2186#comment-8290</guid>
		<description>Jbash: Thanks so much for your thoughful comments.  I think we are due for a conference looking at this topic.  —Christine</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jbash: Thanks so much for your thoughful comments.  I think we are due for a conference looking at this topic.  —Christine</p>
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		<title>By: Adrian Wilkins</title>
		<link>http://www.foresight.org/nanodot/?p=2186#comment-8288</link>
		<dc:creator>Adrian Wilkins</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 17 Mar 2006 15:12:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.foresight.org/nanodot/?p=2186#comment-8288</guid>
		<description>&quot;Protection&quot; is relative.

What investors want is to be &quot;protected&quot; from competition. But the same set of people are the ones loudly proclaiming that competition is what provides the best deal for the common man.

And isn&#039;t US government &quot;by the people, for the people&quot;? Shouldn&#039;t the same apply to research done in its&#039; name?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Protection&#8221; is relative.</p>
<p>What investors want is to be &#8220;protected&#8221; from competition. But the same set of people are the ones loudly proclaiming that competition is what provides the best deal for the common man.</p>
<p>And isn&#8217;t US government &#8220;by the people, for the people&#8221;? Shouldn&#8217;t the same apply to research done in its&#8217; name?</p>
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		<title>By: jbash</title>
		<link>http://www.foresight.org/nanodot/?p=2186#comment-8278</link>
		<dc:creator>jbash</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 17 Mar 2006 00:06:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.foresight.org/nanodot/?p=2186#comment-8278</guid>
		<description>Well, there&#039;s more than one answer to that.

One can reasonably deny the legitimacy of the whole question. If patents
are &lt;em&gt;wrong&lt;/em&gt;, or if the redistribution involved in patents for
government-funded research is &lt;em&gt;wrong&lt;/em&gt;, then it doesn&#039;t
&lt;em&gt;matter&lt;/em&gt; if you&#039;ll get more commercialization or not.

Assuming that it is in fact moral to use monopolies and redistribution
to get commercialization, and further assuming that you &lt;em&gt;want&lt;/em&gt;
rapid commercialization, it&#039;s still not so obvious that patents are
practically needed. People &lt;em&gt;do&lt;/em&gt; invest in technology
without &quot;protection&quot;. The usual example is the software industry,
which grew from almost nothing to huge with no meaningful patent
protection...  obviously there was enough investment there to get
the job done.

Admittedly, investors are going to feel more comfortable if they feel
they have monopolies than if they don&#039;t, and given a choice between two
otherwise equally attractive investments, they&#039;ll choose the more comfortable
one.  However, that doesn&#039;t mean that they&#039;ll be stopped completely.
Things are never entirely equal... and it could be arranged that
there not be so many safe-seeming investments around to
choose from.

The existing system may actually &lt;em&gt;prevent&lt;/em&gt; the commercialization
of good technology that, for whatever reason, &lt;em&gt;doesn&#039;t&lt;/em&gt; happen to
be patented. Would the stigma associated with not being patented tend to
go away if a larger fraction of the obviously good, cutting-edge stuff
was unpatented? How damaging is it that good, unpatented stuff doesn&#039;t
get commercialized, especially since truly revolutionary, ahead-of-their-time
ideas may be out of patent before they&#039;re feasible in practice?

People still invest, and make lots of money, in industries where patents
aren&#039;t available. What are the basic patents underlying Wal-Mart? You
can knock the software examply by saying that software has low startup
costs and low barriers to entry, but retail doesn&#039;t, really. How many
really old industries are still dominated by the firms that started
them? It would seem that running your business well is more important
than having a patent.

One can also argue that investors don&#039;t value patents rationally, and
that that could be fixed with better research (to establish the rational
value) and education (to make it widely known). Most
people who aren&#039;t patent lawyers don&#039;t realize how hard it can be to
actually enforce a patent, and most people who aren&#039;t business managers
don&#039;t realize how many things, beyond just having the basic description
of the technology, it takes to turn an idea into a viable
business... how important it is to run the &lt;em&gt;business&lt;/em&gt; well... how
valuable it is to have the top experts on a technology, even if you
don&#039;t have a patent on it...  how much the prestige of being the
inventor and the best is worth.  They therefore overvalue patent
protection... especially when patent lawyers and random fluctuations in
fashion tell them patents are Very Important.

That brings up the question of whether the investors you get with
patents are the ones you want. The people you want to encourage
are those who plan to build real businesses with real good will,
real know-how, and real reputations in the market... none of which
come from patents. Are investors who are primarily concerned
about patent protection as high-quality as investors who know
that they&#039;re building businesses with intrinsic value? Do they
have the same long-term attitude?

There&#039;s also the issue of friction at the startup stage. To the extent
that entrepreneurs are worried about infringing patents, they may be
chilled from starting anything. I&#039;ve &lt;em&gt;seen&lt;/em&gt; people chilled from
starting businesses by patents. I&#039;ve seen this in cases where the patent
holders proceeded, through their own extremely poor business management,
to utterly fail to commercialize the technology... perhaps unjustly
damaging the technology&#039;s reputation in the process. If you give
somebody a monopoly over a technology, that person&#039;s errors are
going to affect the &lt;em&gt;whole&lt;/em&gt; technology.

Another factor is that the costs of starting
businesses may go way up if founders have to worry about possibly
licensing patents. In some industries, you can start a company on almost
no capital... fees for lawyers to worry about IP encumbrances may be
your &lt;em&gt;biggest&lt;/em&gt; startup cost, if you really do worry about it.
That&#039;s important, because a cost that might be trivial for an
established business can completely prevent the creation of a new one,
and that effect is worst in &quot;scruffy&quot; new industries.
Even within an established business, having to deal with management
questions about IP can make it hard to start up a new initiative.

I&#039;ve had actual legal advice &lt;em&gt;not&lt;/em&gt; to worry about patents, and to
&lt;em&gt;avoid&lt;/em&gt; finding out if things were covered by any patents,
because of the treble damages for knowing violation. How good can a
system be if its own practitioners have to advise people to ignore it?

None of this is certain evidence for my side... but it &lt;em&gt;is&lt;/em&gt;
enough to pretty much destroy the automatic assumption that granting
monopolies on inventions always increases investment, and that
assumption is what underlies the Bayh-Dole patent giveaway.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, there&#8217;s more than one answer to that.</p>
<p>One can reasonably deny the legitimacy of the whole question. If patents<br />
are <em>wrong</em>, or if the redistribution involved in patents for<br />
government-funded research is <em>wrong</em>, then it doesn&#8217;t<br />
<em>matter</em> if you&#8217;ll get more commercialization or not.</p>
<p>Assuming that it is in fact moral to use monopolies and redistribution<br />
to get commercialization, and further assuming that you <em>want</em><br />
rapid commercialization, it&#8217;s still not so obvious that patents are<br />
practically needed. People <em>do</em> invest in technology<br />
without &#8220;protection&#8221;. The usual example is the software industry,<br />
which grew from almost nothing to huge with no meaningful patent<br />
protection&#8230;  obviously there was enough investment there to get<br />
the job done.</p>
<p>Admittedly, investors are going to feel more comfortable if they feel<br />
they have monopolies than if they don&#8217;t, and given a choice between two<br />
otherwise equally attractive investments, they&#8217;ll choose the more comfortable<br />
one.  However, that doesn&#8217;t mean that they&#8217;ll be stopped completely.<br />
Things are never entirely equal&#8230; and it could be arranged that<br />
there not be so many safe-seeming investments around to<br />
choose from.</p>
<p>The existing system may actually <em>prevent</em> the commercialization<br />
of good technology that, for whatever reason, <em>doesn&#8217;t</em> happen to<br />
be patented. Would the stigma associated with not being patented tend to<br />
go away if a larger fraction of the obviously good, cutting-edge stuff<br />
was unpatented? How damaging is it that good, unpatented stuff doesn&#8217;t<br />
get commercialized, especially since truly revolutionary, ahead-of-their-time<br />
ideas may be out of patent before they&#8217;re feasible in practice?</p>
<p>People still invest, and make lots of money, in industries where patents<br />
aren&#8217;t available. What are the basic patents underlying Wal-Mart? You<br />
can knock the software examply by saying that software has low startup<br />
costs and low barriers to entry, but retail doesn&#8217;t, really. How many<br />
really old industries are still dominated by the firms that started<br />
them? It would seem that running your business well is more important<br />
than having a patent.</p>
<p>One can also argue that investors don&#8217;t value patents rationally, and<br />
that that could be fixed with better research (to establish the rational<br />
value) and education (to make it widely known). Most<br />
people who aren&#8217;t patent lawyers don&#8217;t realize how hard it can be to<br />
actually enforce a patent, and most people who aren&#8217;t business managers<br />
don&#8217;t realize how many things, beyond just having the basic description<br />
of the technology, it takes to turn an idea into a viable<br />
business&#8230; how important it is to run the <em>business</em> well&#8230; how<br />
valuable it is to have the top experts on a technology, even if you<br />
don&#8217;t have a patent on it&#8230;  how much the prestige of being the<br />
inventor and the best is worth.  They therefore overvalue patent<br />
protection&#8230; especially when patent lawyers and random fluctuations in<br />
fashion tell them patents are Very Important.</p>
<p>That brings up the question of whether the investors you get with<br />
patents are the ones you want. The people you want to encourage<br />
are those who plan to build real businesses with real good will,<br />
real know-how, and real reputations in the market&#8230; none of which<br />
come from patents. Are investors who are primarily concerned<br />
about patent protection as high-quality as investors who know<br />
that they&#8217;re building businesses with intrinsic value? Do they<br />
have the same long-term attitude?</p>
<p>There&#8217;s also the issue of friction at the startup stage. To the extent<br />
that entrepreneurs are worried about infringing patents, they may be<br />
chilled from starting anything. I&#8217;ve <em>seen</em> people chilled from<br />
starting businesses by patents. I&#8217;ve seen this in cases where the patent<br />
holders proceeded, through their own extremely poor business management,<br />
to utterly fail to commercialize the technology&#8230; perhaps unjustly<br />
damaging the technology&#8217;s reputation in the process. If you give<br />
somebody a monopoly over a technology, that person&#8217;s errors are<br />
going to affect the <em>whole</em> technology.</p>
<p>Another factor is that the costs of starting<br />
businesses may go way up if founders have to worry about possibly<br />
licensing patents. In some industries, you can start a company on almost<br />
no capital&#8230; fees for lawyers to worry about IP encumbrances may be<br />
your <em>biggest</em> startup cost, if you really do worry about it.<br />
That&#8217;s important, because a cost that might be trivial for an<br />
established business can completely prevent the creation of a new one,<br />
and that effect is worst in &#8220;scruffy&#8221; new industries.<br />
Even within an established business, having to deal with management<br />
questions about IP can make it hard to start up a new initiative.</p>
<p>I&#8217;ve had actual legal advice <em>not</em> to worry about patents, and to<br />
<em>avoid</em> finding out if things were covered by any patents,<br />
because of the treble damages for knowing violation. How good can a<br />
system be if its own practitioners have to advise people to ignore it?</p>
<p>None of this is certain evidence for my side&#8230; but it <em>is</em><br />
enough to pretty much destroy the automatic assumption that granting<br />
monopolies on inventions always increases investment, and that<br />
assumption is what underlies the Bayh-Dole patent giveaway.</p>
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		<title>By: Christine Peterson</title>
		<link>http://www.foresight.org/nanodot/?p=2186#comment-8277</link>
		<dc:creator>Christine Peterson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Mar 2006 22:49:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.foresight.org/nanodot/?p=2186#comment-8277</guid>
		<description>Good comments, jbash.  I quite agree that we should try to figure out what makes sense, rather than go by what &quot;most observers&quot; think, given that they do indeed have vested interests.

The argument for patents on government funded research is that investors will not invest without protection.  What is the answer to this point?  —Christine</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Good comments, jbash.  I quite agree that we should try to figure out what makes sense, rather than go by what &#8220;most observers&#8221; think, given that they do indeed have vested interests.</p>
<p>The argument for patents on government funded research is that investors will not invest without protection.  What is the answer to this point?  —Christine</p>
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		<title>By: jbash</title>
		<link>http://www.foresight.org/nanodot/?p=2186#comment-8276</link>
		<dc:creator>jbash</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Mar 2006 21:33:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.foresight.org/nanodot/?p=2186#comment-8276</guid>
		<description>It&#039;s not a matter of things being slowed down by the government holding some of the rights, so much as it is a matter of things being slowed down by the fact that there are at least three rights holders, at least two of them institutions, who have to negotiate among themselves before anything useful can be done. Now, if you had a system where any of the three could unilaterally grant licenses on any terms they might think proper (perhaps sharing any proceeds, but without having to argue about the terms), *that* might speed thigns up. From the one sentence in there, it seems that what they&#039;re doing is the usual lawyer&#039;s error of worrying about how to divide the pie, rather than how to enlarge it.

Oh, and Bayh-Dole seemed like a good idea at the time, and may have even been a good idea given the structure of industry at the time... but I don&#039;t think you can show me any real data that say that &quot;most observers&quot; agree that it&#039;s better than the alternative now, or that counting the noses of &quot;observers&quot; is the right way to figure out what works anyway, given that most of the observers have vested interests in the system. Bayh himself seems to think Bayh-Dole is a loser.

I do agree that there ought to be some real research in this area, and not only that but that somebody ought to make a credible and intellectually defensible attempt to make that research accessible and understandable to non-specialists. I&#039;d also like a pony. In the meantime, until proven otherwise, I want to follow the most obviously moral path and arguably the practical path: no patents on government-funded research, anywhere, ever... and private foundations ought to do the same with research they fund.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It&#8217;s not a matter of things being slowed down by the government holding some of the rights, so much as it is a matter of things being slowed down by the fact that there are at least three rights holders, at least two of them institutions, who have to negotiate among themselves before anything useful can be done. Now, if you had a system where any of the three could unilaterally grant licenses on any terms they might think proper (perhaps sharing any proceeds, but without having to argue about the terms), *that* might speed thigns up. From the one sentence in there, it seems that what they&#8217;re doing is the usual lawyer&#8217;s error of worrying about how to divide the pie, rather than how to enlarge it.</p>
<p>Oh, and Bayh-Dole seemed like a good idea at the time, and may have even been a good idea given the structure of industry at the time&#8230; but I don&#8217;t think you can show me any real data that say that &#8220;most observers&#8221; agree that it&#8217;s better than the alternative now, or that counting the noses of &#8220;observers&#8221; is the right way to figure out what works anyway, given that most of the observers have vested interests in the system. Bayh himself seems to think Bayh-Dole is a loser.</p>
<p>I do agree that there ought to be some real research in this area, and not only that but that somebody ought to make a credible and intellectually defensible attempt to make that research accessible and understandable to non-specialists. I&#8217;d also like a pony. In the meantime, until proven otherwise, I want to follow the most obviously moral path and arguably the practical path: no patents on government-funded research, anywhere, ever&#8230; and private foundations ought to do the same with research they fund.</p>
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