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	<title>Comments on: Where is my flying car?</title>
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	<link>http://www.foresight.org/nanodot/?p=3219</link>
	<description>examining transformative technology</description>
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		<title>By: J. Storrs Hall</title>
		<link>http://www.foresight.org/nanodot/?p=3219#comment-859647</link>
		<dc:creator>J. Storrs Hall</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 01 Aug 2009 15:53:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.foresight.org/nanodot/?p=3219#comment-859647</guid>
		<description>@Dan:  Geese do a pretty good job of flying in formation and even improve their aerodynamic efficiency doing it.  Don&#039;t see why we can&#039;t do at least as well.  And remember, there are something like half a billion cubic km of airspace over North America.  Given flying cars, people will spread out...

In cities, consider this: as computing power and sensor tech improves, it will be possible to have a realtime map of all the circulation over a city; ATC would not just allow for but use the impact of each vehicle, plus ground-based thrusters and so forth, to manage all the traffic and air currents as an integrated whole.  You don&#039;t get to control your aircar by hand in town, of course, but then you won&#039;t get to control your ground car, either.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Dan:  Geese do a pretty good job of flying in formation and even improve their aerodynamic efficiency doing it.  Don&#8217;t see why we can&#8217;t do at least as well.  And remember, there are something like half a billion cubic km of airspace over North America.  Given flying cars, people will spread out&#8230;</p>
<p>In cities, consider this: as computing power and sensor tech improves, it will be possible to have a realtime map of all the circulation over a city; ATC would not just allow for but use the impact of each vehicle, plus ground-based thrusters and so forth, to manage all the traffic and air currents as an integrated whole.  You don&#8217;t get to control your aircar by hand in town, of course, but then you won&#8217;t get to control your ground car, either.</p>
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		<title>By: GeoDave</title>
		<link>http://www.foresight.org/nanodot/?p=3219#comment-859645</link>
		<dc:creator>GeoDave</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 01 Aug 2009 00:54:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.foresight.org/nanodot/?p=3219#comment-859645</guid>
		<description>Advances in broadband telecommunications, miniturization, ultra-portable technology, and human interface technology have out-paced transportation and propulsion technology by a longshot. The world is interconnected in ways that the car or even high speed air travel can&#039;t match. Think about it. The car for all it&#039;s modern features is based on the same combustion tech that Henry Ford&#039;s Model T fucntioned on and is used in exactly the same way. Conversely, computing and telecom tech have evolved together in ways that are unrecognizable when compared to their 1960&#039;s era protypes. I don&#039;t think even Gates or Wosniak could have appreciated what has emerged from those early creations. My point is that these advances are already impacting airline travel (business) and reducing individual automotive travel (commuters) who rely more on their connectivity than their need to be somewhere physically. We will still move around but it will be down to the corner for milk and cigarettes or over to Phuket for vacation -and less liekly to work or attend meetings. Flying cars? Eventually. Personal flying cars. Unlikely. Insufficient economic demand. Having said all this a flying car would KICK ASS.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Advances in broadband telecommunications, miniturization, ultra-portable technology, and human interface technology have out-paced transportation and propulsion technology by a longshot. The world is interconnected in ways that the car or even high speed air travel can&#8217;t match. Think about it. The car for all it&#8217;s modern features is based on the same combustion tech that Henry Ford&#8217;s Model T fucntioned on and is used in exactly the same way. Conversely, computing and telecom tech have evolved together in ways that are unrecognizable when compared to their 1960&#8242;s era protypes. I don&#8217;t think even Gates or Wosniak could have appreciated what has emerged from those early creations. My point is that these advances are already impacting airline travel (business) and reducing individual automotive travel (commuters) who rely more on their connectivity than their need to be somewhere physically. We will still move around but it will be down to the corner for milk and cigarettes or over to Phuket for vacation -and less liekly to work or attend meetings. Flying cars? Eventually. Personal flying cars. Unlikely. Insufficient economic demand. Having said all this a flying car would KICK ASS.</p>
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		<title>By: Dan H.</title>
		<link>http://www.foresight.org/nanodot/?p=3219#comment-859644</link>
		<dc:creator>Dan H.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 31 Jul 2009 23:52:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.foresight.org/nanodot/?p=3219#comment-859644</guid>
		<description>There&#039;s a flaw in the notion of the private car - you simply can&#039;t put as many cars in the air as you can put on roads on the ground.  Even with computer control, air vehicles need a lot of space around them, because they move with the air mass, and air is a fluid medium full of updrafts, downdrafts, wind shear, and other effects.  This is why thousands of feet separate airplanes at all times.  The limitation is not the ability of the pilot.  

The carrying capacity of the airspace over a city isn&#039;t big enough to handle even 1/1000 of the cars that are driving on the roads beneath it.  End of story.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There&#8217;s a flaw in the notion of the private car &#8211; you simply can&#8217;t put as many cars in the air as you can put on roads on the ground.  Even with computer control, air vehicles need a lot of space around them, because they move with the air mass, and air is a fluid medium full of updrafts, downdrafts, wind shear, and other effects.  This is why thousands of feet separate airplanes at all times.  The limitation is not the ability of the pilot.  </p>
<p>The carrying capacity of the airspace over a city isn&#8217;t big enough to handle even 1/1000 of the cars that are driving on the roads beneath it.  End of story.</p>
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		<title>By: Tedd McHenry</title>
		<link>http://www.foresight.org/nanodot/?p=3219#comment-859642</link>
		<dc:creator>Tedd McHenry</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 31 Jul 2009 16:02:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.foresight.org/nanodot/?p=3219#comment-859642</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;Without significant automation and AI, turning hordes of untrained operators loose in the skys will be a disaster.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

As I pilot, I&#039;m sure you&#039;re right.  But full automation of flying is already possible, and full automation of driving is just around the corner.  Within a generation or so it will probably be illegal to manually drive a car in most places.  The safety and economic benefits are too great for that not to happen.  I love to drive and will hate to give it up, but driving a car or riding a motorcycle will, quite soon, be anachronistic skills akin to riding a horse.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>Without significant automation and AI, turning hordes of untrained operators loose in the skys will be a disaster.</p></blockquote>
<p>As I pilot, I&#8217;m sure you&#8217;re right.  But full automation of flying is already possible, and full automation of driving is just around the corner.  Within a generation or so it will probably be illegal to manually drive a car in most places.  The safety and economic benefits are too great for that not to happen.  I love to drive and will hate to give it up, but driving a car or riding a motorcycle will, quite soon, be anachronistic skills akin to riding a horse.</p>
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		<title>By: Tedd McHenry</title>
		<link>http://www.foresight.org/nanodot/?p=3219#comment-859639</link>
		<dc:creator>Tedd McHenry</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 30 Jul 2009 19:46:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.foresight.org/nanodot/?p=3219#comment-859639</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;In the next place, and parallel with the motor truck, there will develop the hired or privately owned motor carriage.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

It seems to me that this pretty accurately predicts the private car.  How does it not?  I grant that Wells may have underestimated how common ownership would become (even carriages were only owned by the fairly well-to-do, in his day).  And he clearly underestimated how common it would be for people to drive themselves.  But he seem to have the general idea of a private car, spot on.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>In the next place, and parallel with the motor truck, there will develop the hired or privately owned motor carriage.</p></blockquote>
<p>It seems to me that this pretty accurately predicts the private car.  How does it not?  I grant that Wells may have underestimated how common ownership would become (even carriages were only owned by the fairly well-to-do, in his day).  And he clearly underestimated how common it would be for people to drive themselves.  But he seem to have the general idea of a private car, spot on.</p>
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		<title>By: Hal</title>
		<link>http://www.foresight.org/nanodot/?p=3219#comment-859638</link>
		<dc:creator>Hal</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 30 Jul 2009 19:14:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.foresight.org/nanodot/?p=3219#comment-859638</guid>
		<description>ISTM that Wells&#039; blind spot was not so much economic, as a matter of social class. He saw how automobiles could benefit the rich. He did not foresee the continued rise of an independent middle class becoming the dominant force in society. His perspective was of a world where people knew their place. Many people of his era were in fact quite horrified by the rise of the vulgar classes.

So I think it is repeating the same mistake to apply our own concepts of the social order to new technologies. Seeing them as democratizing forces, or further empowering the middle class, is an instance of the same kind of simplistic extrapolation which tripped up 19th century forecasters. Chances are we will view future changes with the same dismay which every generation has felt as its assumptions were upended.

For example, perhaps we might see widespread voluntary adoption of mind control, where people turn some aspects of their minds over to a controlling entity, for some recompense. We might see the final death of privacy. We might see increasing polarization and a vast increase in inequality of power and wealth beyond any historical precedent. We might see replication of human-level intelligence become so cheap, common and widespread that it is of essentially no economic value.

So yes, maybe we&#039;ll have flying cars, but they will be only for the rich. For the rest of us, our jobs, even our lives, will be as uploads resident in the car firmware. I will be controlling the right front propeller servo to compensate for moment to moment variations in wind speed and atmospheric conditions. Brave new world indeed!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>ISTM that Wells&#8217; blind spot was not so much economic, as a matter of social class. He saw how automobiles could benefit the rich. He did not foresee the continued rise of an independent middle class becoming the dominant force in society. His perspective was of a world where people knew their place. Many people of his era were in fact quite horrified by the rise of the vulgar classes.</p>
<p>So I think it is repeating the same mistake to apply our own concepts of the social order to new technologies. Seeing them as democratizing forces, or further empowering the middle class, is an instance of the same kind of simplistic extrapolation which tripped up 19th century forecasters. Chances are we will view future changes with the same dismay which every generation has felt as its assumptions were upended.</p>
<p>For example, perhaps we might see widespread voluntary adoption of mind control, where people turn some aspects of their minds over to a controlling entity, for some recompense. We might see the final death of privacy. We might see increasing polarization and a vast increase in inequality of power and wealth beyond any historical precedent. We might see replication of human-level intelligence become so cheap, common and widespread that it is of essentially no economic value.</p>
<p>So yes, maybe we&#8217;ll have flying cars, but they will be only for the rich. For the rest of us, our jobs, even our lives, will be as uploads resident in the car firmware. I will be controlling the right front propeller servo to compensate for moment to moment variations in wind speed and atmospheric conditions. Brave new world indeed!</p>
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		<title>By: Faffnir</title>
		<link>http://www.foresight.org/nanodot/?p=3219#comment-859637</link>
		<dc:creator>Faffnir</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 30 Jul 2009 18:44:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.foresight.org/nanodot/?p=3219#comment-859637</guid>
		<description>Without significant automation and AI, turning hordes of untrained operators loose in the skys will be a disaster.  Witness the carnage on the roads from people whose minds are on anything but safely operating their cars.  I&#039;m a professional driver and private pilot.  Aviation is a skill learned over hours of practice.  Driving a car is only less so, since you&#039;re only moving in one geometric plane.  It would be great of someone could come up with something like the old British &quot;SuperCar&quot; series: vertical take-off and landing, cruise at 300 or so knots,room for 4 passengers plus luggage in about the footprint of a modern mid-size car.
I&#039;d pay money for something like that.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Without significant automation and AI, turning hordes of untrained operators loose in the skys will be a disaster.  Witness the carnage on the roads from people whose minds are on anything but safely operating their cars.  I&#8217;m a professional driver and private pilot.  Aviation is a skill learned over hours of practice.  Driving a car is only less so, since you&#8217;re only moving in one geometric plane.  It would be great of someone could come up with something like the old British &#8220;SuperCar&#8221; series: vertical take-off and landing, cruise at 300 or so knots,room for 4 passengers plus luggage in about the footprint of a modern mid-size car.<br />
I&#8217;d pay money for something like that.</p>
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		<title>By: Shannon Love</title>
		<link>http://www.foresight.org/nanodot/?p=3219#comment-859636</link>
		<dc:creator>Shannon Love</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 30 Jul 2009 18:18:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.foresight.org/nanodot/?p=3219#comment-859636</guid>
		<description>I think that visionaries tend to see future tech as merely extending existing systems. Wells is clearly doing this. He is extrapolating from the late-1800&#039;s use of carriages which served only as spokes radiating from rail hubs. Virtually no one back then used carriages for long distance transportation. Instead, they traveled 90% of the distance by rail or water and then used horse drawn transport for the remaining 90%. 

I think we have the same conceptual problem with flying-cars. Even the name itself suggest an extension of the current automobile instead of a game changing technology with its own unique capabilities and patterns of uses.  For example, most flying-car concepts center around speeding up the commute into and between urban cores even through that mode of transportation is rapidly declining. Most people in America today are more likely to travel from part of suburbia to another than they are to commute to an urban core. Future transport, whatever the form, will enhance this new mode, not the dominant mode of the 1950&#039;s.

In short, the &quot;flying-car&quot; won&#039;t be a &quot;car&quot; anymore than a &quot;horseless carriage&quot; was carriage. It will be its own thing with its own advantages and disadvantages. We should start thinking from scratch by chunking the name &quot;flying-car&quot;. Call it &quot;point-to-point, individual aerial transport&quot; and think about it as a totally new thing instead of just an extension of existing systems.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think that visionaries tend to see future tech as merely extending existing systems. Wells is clearly doing this. He is extrapolating from the late-1800&#8242;s use of carriages which served only as spokes radiating from rail hubs. Virtually no one back then used carriages for long distance transportation. Instead, they traveled 90% of the distance by rail or water and then used horse drawn transport for the remaining 90%. </p>
<p>I think we have the same conceptual problem with flying-cars. Even the name itself suggest an extension of the current automobile instead of a game changing technology with its own unique capabilities and patterns of uses.  For example, most flying-car concepts center around speeding up the commute into and between urban cores even through that mode of transportation is rapidly declining. Most people in America today are more likely to travel from part of suburbia to another than they are to commute to an urban core. Future transport, whatever the form, will enhance this new mode, not the dominant mode of the 1950&#8242;s.</p>
<p>In short, the &#8220;flying-car&#8221; won&#8217;t be a &#8220;car&#8221; anymore than a &#8220;horseless carriage&#8221; was carriage. It will be its own thing with its own advantages and disadvantages. We should start thinking from scratch by chunking the name &#8220;flying-car&#8221;. Call it &#8220;point-to-point, individual aerial transport&#8221; and think about it as a totally new thing instead of just an extension of existing systems.</p>
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		<title>By: M. Spehar</title>
		<link>http://www.foresight.org/nanodot/?p=3219#comment-859635</link>
		<dc:creator>M. Spehar</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 30 Jul 2009 17:36:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.foresight.org/nanodot/?p=3219#comment-859635</guid>
		<description>With the now dogmatic belief in &quot;peak oil,&quot; the future of a flying car would seem to depend upon the discovery of some &quot;unobtainium&quot; fuel.

As we move towards a greener, more egalitarian utopia, such scientific advances will be less and less likely.  After all, we&#039;ll always have some group of poor unfortunates who need free health care or some such other public largesse.  Doing our duty in providing for such needy will require turning away from such illusory progress as free-wheeling science might seem to promise.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>With the now dogmatic belief in &#8220;peak oil,&#8221; the future of a flying car would seem to depend upon the discovery of some &#8220;unobtainium&#8221; fuel.</p>
<p>As we move towards a greener, more egalitarian utopia, such scientific advances will be less and less likely.  After all, we&#8217;ll always have some group of poor unfortunates who need free health care or some such other public largesse.  Doing our duty in providing for such needy will require turning away from such illusory progress as free-wheeling science might seem to promise.</p>
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		<title>By: lorien1973</title>
		<link>http://www.foresight.org/nanodot/?p=3219#comment-859634</link>
		<dc:creator>lorien1973</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 30 Jul 2009 17:23:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.foresight.org/nanodot/?p=3219#comment-859634</guid>
		<description>People can barely drive in 2 dimensions. Imagine 3 dimensions. *shudders*
[Yes -- the AI driver is necessary.  But closer than you might think.  --jsh]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>People can barely drive in 2 dimensions. Imagine 3 dimensions. *shudders*<br />
[Yes -- the AI driver is necessary.  But closer than you might think.  --jsh]</p>
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